What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

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What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by madmouse on Thu May 02, 2013 12:37 am

I recently acquired a pair of mice from a breeder in Ohio (Wildside Exotics). The breeder called them "smoke". She said they originated with a breeder in the UK. According to her, the mice heterozygous for "smoke" have sort of pseudo-himi points. The homozygotes have darker, solid coats. The line also sometimes throws PEWs. I got both a heterozygous and a homozygous doe from her. The het doe has dark red ruby eyes. Her points are exaggerated when compared to the regular himi (they cover much more area). The light part of her coat has some dark hair tips. The homo doe I got has the same dark ruby eyes as the het doe. Her coat is dark and solid, but the undercoat is very pale. The breeder says that some of the other smoke mice she's produced have been even darker. The length of my mouse's coat is such that it allows a lot of the pale undercoat to show through, making her look nearly marked.

I have seen some reference to smoke and colorpoint smoke as unstandardized colors. I think that these colors have been described as a/a b/b c^e/c^e d/d (smoke) and a/a c^h/c^e d/d (colorpoint smoke). But it seems to me that my mice are not quite the same thing and the term "smoke" is just causing confusion.

Does anyone have any clue about these mice? Do you think the smoke and colorpoint smoke genotypes fit them? It will be awhile before I breed them as they're pretty young, but I'm thinking of pairing the homozygote to a black self with a well known background, just to see what pops up. And I'm thinking I might pair the pointed heterozygote to a himi buck to test for c^h. Is this a decent plan? Can you think of a better one?

Questions, answers, comments and corrections welcome!

Here are pix of the mice in question:
This is the pointed heterozygote



This is the homozygote



And here's the homozygote's coat rubbed the wrong way to show the undercoat


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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by lunalady on Thu May 02, 2013 10:29 pm

They r so neat looking

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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by Trixie's Mice on Thu May 02, 2013 11:15 pm

That bottom picture. Is that like, agouti with white underneath?
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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by candycorn on Thu May 02, 2013 11:26 pm

There was someone in Europe who was breeding agouti's with a white undercoat. They were beautiful. Not sure what happened with that but they did prove out.
No clue on these guys... http://www.themouseconnection.org/t455-agouti-with-white-undercoat?highlight=white+undercoat - But this is a link to that post.
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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by madmouse on Sat May 04, 2013 2:01 am

I do remember those beautiful agoutis with the white undercoat! I believe they were Thapsus'. I don't think my mouse is agouti. I don't see any ticking, but then that might be pretty hard to see on a long coat anyway.

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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by candycorn on Sat May 04, 2013 1:08 pm

No, I don't see any ticking either...but the white undercoat gene might be the same.
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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by Love2read on Sat May 04, 2013 1:20 pm

I've had these popping up in my Angora/Texel line as well. My belief is that they're simply Burmese.

I got a Smoke boy from Michele and he will be put with one if my "smoke" girls and an Agouti once QT is done.
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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by madmouse on Sat May 04, 2013 5:42 pm

Love2read! Please let me know how that turns out!

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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by Love2read on Sat May 04, 2013 7:03 pm

Will do. Wink

If I have a Chinchilla or Silver Agouti I can spare then I'll put him in with one of those as well. That will help rule out if he's c^ch based or not(such as Burmese). I do have a Burmese doe, but she's already in with a different buck. Maybe ne
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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by Stina on Sat May 04, 2013 7:13 pm

I have seen some reference to smoke and colorpoint smoke as unstandardized colors. I think that these colors have been described as a/a b/b c^e/c^e d/d (smoke) and a/a c^h/c^e d/d (colorpoint smoke). But it seems to me that my mice are not quite the same thing and the term "smoke" is just causing confusion.

This is definitely not the same thing as what is labeled smoke on finnmouse and such... I like this type of "pattern" being called smoke more than grayish shades. This looks like smoke in cats...I'd like to see what happens if bred in undiluted colors

burmese does not normally have a drastically lighter undercoat...but this could be some sort of modifier

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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by Love2read on Sun May 05, 2013 4:37 pm

What color would you suggest breeding him to Stina? I might have a spare doe of that color I can put him with...
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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by Stina on Sun May 05, 2013 10:34 pm

I'd probably breed to black and/or agouti

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Re: What are these mysterious "smoke" mice?

Post by thapsus on Wed May 08, 2013 3:26 am

Wow! I'm so excited to see a mouse similar to mine. I really hope you will get more of them and find out what's causing it. I still have them and more are born. I will write more to my white based thread.

Woot!
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