The term 'show type'

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The term 'show type'

Post by Rhasputin on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:11 pm

What does it mean to you?

I think the word has almost no meaning now-a-days. It has been used to describe anything from an award winning mouse, to a pet store mouse with large ears, and everything in between. When someone says 'show type' to me, I no longer know what they mean! tongue

To me, to call something show type should mean the mouse is a mouse that has been bred from mice who would win awards, or be in the same class as mice who have won awards. Not a mouse who is huge with the best type, either. A Mouse such as a dutch, almost always has poor 'type' but this is because the focus is the markings. Does that mean that a BIS dutch mouse isn't 'show type'? To some people, it might not be.

I have seen mice (and honestly, I can admit to doing this when i first began breeding) labeled as show type, come from the owner's first litter with the mice. Just because one of the parents came from a breeder who owns and breeds other quality mice. To me, a mouse isn't show type unless it can be shown, but I think my opinion differs a lot from many people. In fact, I think everyone seems to have a very different view on what it means.

This is an interesting topic. I think the terminology needs some help. Show type. . . What does it mean.
Does it refer only to the mouse's body type? Does it refer to the overall appearance of a mouse? What do you think when you hear 'show type' ?

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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by candycorn on Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:48 pm

To me it's having the type that can win shows. Size, ear shape and size, body shape...all the factors that can lead to winning a show. That is show type to me.
A show winning dutch, or texel for example that doesn't have the right "type" is not a show type to me. It's still a show winner...but not typey. So yeah, if I wanted to see a show type dutch, it would have to have all the same physical traits as a PEW show mouse with the right markings. I am sure there are not many of those.
But that is just me. I am fairly new to the mouse world and I have never been to a show.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by thistlebrook on Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:08 pm

To me, it's a mouse who conforms to the standard set by the American Fancy Rat and Mouse Association (http://www.afrma.org/stdsmse.htm). In my opinion show type does not necessarily mean show quality.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by m137b on Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:00 pm

For an animal to conform to a standard it must be showable, and show quality.

I think the term is literally useless and shouldn't be used at all. It doesn't have any real tangible meaning. It seems one of those made up terms meant to give value to an animal despite it's shortcomings. It does not mean the animal is show quality, showable, is out of show quality or showable stock, or will produce show quality or showable offspring.


Quality isn't something that can be defined with one catch all term. A very descriptive and well written standard can help with classifying animals into groups[show quality, showable, brood quality, pet quality ect], but it does not eliminate the fact that any evaluation of an animals quality is just an opinion. It is one person's evaluation of that animal based on their interpretation of the standard.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by thistlebrook on Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:28 pm

Maybe I should have worded that better. To me, show type is an animal who conforms as closely to the standard as possible. Pet type is an animal far removed from the standard. There is an obvious division in the quality of mice found in the US (pet store vs "show type" breeder) and (again just my opinion) it's an easy way to differentiate between the two.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by m137b on Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:46 pm

The AFRMA point scale gives 50 points to color and a total of 50 points on the body.

So you can have big typey stock who would be very far removed from the standard, because they are an unstandardized variety.

And at the same time you can have mice with only moderate type who conform very closely to the standard[in comparision] because of superior color.

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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by Rhasputin on Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:00 pm

Very interesting thoughts, everyone!


This confusion is one of the reaosns that the UMC gives coat and markings their own 1st-3rd ribbons. It is very difficult to breed them anywhere near the same body standards as say, a PEW or champagne.


A thought this brings up is. . . If I were judging and a perfectly, PERFECTLY marked dutch came up, who did not have good body type, and another mouse who was a perfectly, PERFECTLY typed light self mouse whose colour was off, who would I choose? Both have major flaws in major areas. . . Which area holds more value? Does one area hold more value over another on the judging table?


Hmm


Edit: A point to note is that the UMC does not pick it's BIS based solely on points alone. It is a combination of points, and over all appearance. So for instance, a mouse which scores 100 could be beaten by a mouse which scores 90 if the 90 mouse looks better over all.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by m137b on Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:24 pm

Rhasputin, I'm curious if you have ever exhibited a species before who's standard was based on a point scale. I have been curious about this for a while but never had a good reason to bring it up. But your last comment really stikes me as something someone who doesn't understand the reason behind points would say.

I dislike the blanket point scale used in the AFRMA and ECMA. It does not truely reflect the indivudality of each variety's needs. Each variety needs it's own unique point scale to reflect it's own qualities. Not to mention the AFRMA point scale does not even give points on coat.

If each variety has it's own point scale then the answers are simple, you are evaluating the animal as a whole based on it's own unique standard, you are not comparing that animal to another from a different variety but rather you are comparing it to the ideal for it's variety, whoever is closer to ideal for it's variety will win.

ps, no animal will ever get 100 points, even your best animals generally will only get 75-85 points. The standard is intended to be excessively lofty, so that it can not be easily acheived. There are always faults, no matter how minor they are and they add up.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by Rhasputin on Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:32 pm

Yes, I just used 100 as a random number. tongue


That's an interesting thought about having each one judged to it's own scale. Is there another species which uses a similar method?


I also strongly dislike the blanket points scale. It really leaves no room for certain varieties to ever win.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by m137b on Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:40 pm

Every other species I know[rabbits, cavys] use unique point scales for each variety/breed. If you'd like I can bring some old ARBA standards with me to RF for you to look at, these have both rabbit and cavy standards. It also shows the wording that is typical for standards which is very detail oriented and structured. I think some of these are avaliable on line through the national speciality clubs for each breed.

I have never seen standards as vague or point scales as poorly allocated as I have seen in the mouse fancy. I mean no offense personally it's just an observation.



Last edited by m137b on Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by Rhasputin on Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:43 pm

Cindy, that would be FANTASTIC! I'd love to make the judging scale better in any way I can. I have never shown any other species before mice, and especially never set up my own club before.

Is there any way you could get the sheets to me earlier? Mail them to me or find me some links online?
That way I could try to re-work the UMC judging standards a bit to help better reflect on all the breeds. Happy

Cheer

No offense taken. I have no idea how other species are run, so the only thing I had to work with were the mouse judging score sheets that other clubs have already made.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by m137b on Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:36 am

These two are the full standard, as it would appear in the standard of perfection book. The only other thing that is in the standard of perfection is both a black and white photo anda color photo. http://americanchinchillarabbitbreedersassociation.com/American%20Chinchilla%20Standard%20of%20Perfection.pdf
http://www.locolop.com/HLstandard.html

This one has also described the color groups, however this breed is only shown in broken and solid so these are there for the breeder's benefit, the descriptions while accurate are not part of the standard. In the standard there are color guides which spell out specifically what each color is intended to look like, what each color's faults are, and disqualifications are. It does not give genetics info on the colors.
http://www.frenchlopsinohio.webs.com/


This is a working standard, meaning the breed is currently under development, one breeder holds the COD[certificate of development] and is attemping to have it recogonized by the club.
http://lionheadrabbit.net/standardallCODs.htm
another working standard
http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/velveteenstd.htm

You can see they all follow the same basic format. But the points allocated to each section are intended to give preference to that breed's specific traits. You can also see the wording is pretty specific and structured.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by Zia on Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:52 am

I prefer the type of judging Cindy is talking about. I've also always wondered why the mouse community doesn't do it that way.

I also don't like the term "show type". I'm careful not to use it, or if I do put it in quotations because somehow that makes it better to me. I DO use the phrase "typey" or "nicely typed" to imply mice that are being bred towards a show standard, and do conform more to the standard than your average pet type mouse.

My feelings towards this are especially true about my mice, since I haven't shown any of them yet. I feel like I should have showed and placed, AND have a line of mice that are producing true, then I'd say that I have show/exhibition (a word I actually like better) quality mice.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by m137b on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:13 am

I know it would be a lot of work, but probably well worth it in the long run. I'm pretty sure the NMC has differnent point scales for each variety, it would explain how a dutch can win best in show against a pew.

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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by GypsyTails on Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:57 pm

I've gotten to the point where I prefer the terms typey (comes close to meeting standards for its variety), mixed type (which can be a mouse from 100% "show type" decent who just happens to be a poor representation of the standard or it can be a cross with a typey mouse and a pet type mouse) and pet type. That's just where I'm at now. I'd like to see each variety have its own point scale.

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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by tinyhartmouseries on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:11 pm

Isn't this how dog judges decide best of show? Look at how each dog conforms to it's own standard and pick the one that does it best? I really agree with the system Cindy is presenting.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by Zia on Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:26 pm

On the NMC site you can find this little blurb if you go onto the Breed Standards page then click on any of the varieties:

Note: A detailed breakdown of the allocation of points for each variety is given in the printed version of the Breed Standards and is provided to all new members on joining the National Mouse Club.

I feel like I've seen the same thing on AFRMA but I couldn't find it when I did a quick search just now. And I did find a link on the ECMA site that is a PDF of the score sheet used, but I don't quite understand it.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by Rhasputin on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:55 pm

I believe the ECMA and AFRMA both use almost the same over-all judging type.

I'm going to see if I can put together some better score sheets. Maybe I'll have one shipped over from someone in the NMC if I can. Happy
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by doganddisc on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:16 pm

tinyhartmouseries wrote:Isn't this how dog judges decide best of show? Look at how each dog conforms to it's own standard and pick the one that does it best? I really agree with the system Cindy is presenting.

This is correct. The problem with judging solely for conformation, IMHO, is that important aspects such as health, temperament, and ability are largely ignored.

To answer the original question, I agree with what is being said here. Show type is a mouse that has resulted in a litter bred specifically for show. Just as "show type" dogs are dogs that were bred for show. "Working dogs" are dogs that were bred for work. "Pet dogs" are dogs that were bred to be pets. The type just speaks to the purpose of the animal.
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by Rhasputin on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:49 pm

I like the look of this link: http://americanchinchillarabbitbreedersassociation.com/American%20Chinchilla%20Standard%20of%20Perfection.pdf


I could probably write up a page like that for each variety no problem. Would that solve a lot of the issues with the over-all points system? (It never did make much sense to me)
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by lunalady on Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:27 am

Cavies are given points in each breed type. Males compete with males females to females. Then the first place males in each type compete for best fo show. And the same with females. Body size and shape color could vary for breed type. So, you could win first place for your breed type and win best of show. But, you had to win first in your class to compete in best of show.

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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by m137b on Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:16 am

Rhasputin wrote:I like the look of this link: http://americanchinchillarabbitbreedersassociation.com/American%20Chinchilla%20Standard%20of%20Perfection.pdf


I could probably write up a page like that for each variety no problem. Would that solve a lot of the issues with the over-all points system? (It never did make much sense to me)

I like the idea personally. How do you plan to break down the colors?


Lunalady,
In order to compete in best in show you have to win best of breed.

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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by Rhasputin on Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:18 pm

I'm really not sure yet. I think I'll just make the sheets up and go at it. . .

I like the break down for chinchilla there, how they judge each aspect of the hair colour, so I think I'll use something similar for mouse ticked varieties.

For self, it would be judged on the solidness of the colour, undercoat could be a section for them as well.


Ideas are welcome. Big smile
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Re: The term 'show type'

Post by kawmice on Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:11 am

Ok - I will read everyone's comments a bit later since I am at work. lol

My defination of a show type mouse is a mouse who meets the physical standards put out by AFRMA.

Happy
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