agouti with white undercoat

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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Stina on Wed May 09, 2012 8:25 pm

It's unlikely this is something you can recreate by breeding animals outside of this line. There's no way this is just a combination of existing genes.

You should try breeding one of the "white based" boys to a completely unrelated doe...that will tell you if it is dominant or recessive.

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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by doganddisc on Wed May 09, 2012 10:29 pm

This is fascinating!
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Mrs. Beach on Fri May 11, 2012 9:48 pm

Thapsus! You made it! How wonderful to have you here!
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Frizzle on Sat May 12, 2012 3:22 pm

Do you just have this expressing in agouti? I think it'd be interesting to out-cross not only to test it's dominance, but also to see what colors it works with.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Laigaie on Sun May 13, 2012 7:38 pm

The link shared earlier about white underfur, the gene that this may or may not be, stated that it was nearly invisible in non-agouti (I assume they meant black) mice. It would be incredibly interesting to see what it does to yellow, black, or chocolate mice, however, as that'll give you a better idea of how it works.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Stina on Sun May 13, 2012 7:57 pm

Oh man...a black "smoke" mouse (smoke is what a white undercoat is called in some other species like rats and cats) would be soooooooooooo awesome!!

I've had x-brindles with white undercoats...but I believe its an effect of Mo^br itself

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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Lycrisa on Tue May 15, 2012 6:32 am

These guys are wicked cool.
I'm not as fond of agouti as the self but I'd
probably scale my blues way back to get a line like that.

I mean..wow. just wow.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Rhasputin on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:55 am

SarahC on Fancy Mouse Breeders, has sent me this message

"The agouti mouse with the white undercoat.I get those,they come out of pearls.I get them in black and blue.I guess with the right breeding you could produce some decent pearls,the longer fur maked the pearling more dramatic."
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by kawmice on Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:23 am

Interresting....... thanks for sharing Casey!
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Mrs. Beach on Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:10 am

Roland says in an email, "I have not seen mice with this undercoat before. Perhaps it is a new mutation? Would be interesting to see offspring without long hair and offspring from crossing back to normal agouti and F2 from F1 x F1."
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by thewesterngate on Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:09 pm

I think this is pretty amazing! I would LOVE a LH black with a white undercoat. Happy Simply gorgeous.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by thapsus on Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:20 pm

So, next generation has been born. Sire of the litter is cinnamon white based and mother is white based agouti. Parents are from those two litter I have shown in this topic.

Pups are now almost 3 weeks old and white under fur have just become visible.


So it is heritable at least. Next pups from white based dad and carrier mom will be 3 weeks old in 4 days. Then we will see if it is dominant or recessive.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by LittleSniffs on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:55 pm

WOW those are so neat looking!! Love it!
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Mrs. Beach on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:36 pm

Thanks for keeping us up to date and posting that pic! Wow!
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Frizzle on Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:16 pm

Glad I logged on, so glad it's hereditary!
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by thapsus on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:54 pm

So in that litter above that both parents are white based, 5/8 pups are white based.

I have two litters where dad is white based and mom could/should be a carrier -> no white based pups.

Weird. Not a normal recessive.

Next both parents white based litter is now 3 weeks old, so white underfur should become visible in few days.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by tinyhartmouseries on Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:11 pm

Very interesting!!! This is such a neat experiment. I wonder if you got the 5/8 ratio because they need a copy of some other modifier to create that white...very strange.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Laigaie on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:00 am

Not getting any in two litters doesn't mean it doesn't inherit normally. It is possible that it's just poor luck. :/
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Mrs. Beach on Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:42 pm

Puzzling, indeed! I'm sure with continued breeding an inheritance pattern will emerge.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by thapsus on Wed May 08, 2013 3:45 am

Hi! I'm still here and so are white based mice.









Still don't know how it inherits. Probably not dominant. Probably recessive that needs more than one gene or perhaps need some gene not to be present, I don't. How ever: pups from both white based parent can all be white based, but they also might not be. I did two litters with same parents both white based. In first litter there was one white based pup out of 5 (didn't cull any). In second litter all pups were white based. I've had litters where both parents are white based -> no white based pups. I've had litters where parents are not white based (but from white based line) -> white based pups.

I so far have only agouti and cinnamon white based. But I now have lilac, black and chocolate carriers(?) born. Hopefully I will eventually find out if they can be any color or if it needs ticking to show.



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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Stina on Wed May 08, 2013 4:45 am

ack I Love them so much!!

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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Lycrisa on Fri May 10, 2013 3:10 am

I really love watching this as it develops. They are really neat looking.
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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by thapsus on Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:37 am

New version? A hidden "fox"?

Black long haired boy


But when you blow






So only the belly is white underneath. The short hairs too, but it was too difficult to catch on film (because I was taking photos, and holding the mouse at the same time).

Could this be just some fault in color, or could it really be same gene doing it. I have two of these boys. And also black mice from the same parents but without underwhite belly fur. There are also "normal" white based agouti siblings.

Also this could be chocolate's version (at least with good imagination)




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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Mrs. Beach on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:29 pm

Thapsus, I have read about a white undercoat gene in the AFRMA Mouse Genetics book. One exists, but only so far in labs. I think you've got it!

[edit] Here's what it says on page 152 of _Mouse Genetics_, 6th edition, 2012 from AFRMA:

uw, Underwhite (15; Slc45a2^uw: solute carrier family 45, member 2, underwhite; homozygotes light beige color on the dorsal side and much lighter on the ventrum; heterozygotes are dark brown; eyes very light at birth but darken with age)

There is also:
wuf, White Underfur (unknown; white underfur)


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Re: agouti with white undercoat

Post by Trixie's Mice on Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:32 am

Thank you for posting that Ann! I find that fascinating. Sorry if this is a silly question, but do they know what chromosome or loci it's on? Or just that it is recessive.
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