Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

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Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Wed May 23, 2012 3:31 pm

I have a bit of a predicament here and I'm hoping somebody can point me in the right direction.

I aimed for two litters to be born before I go back to school for the summer. The first was Poem's babies, himi babies, who are doing fantastic.

The second was to start a line of chocolates. Because I only have one chocolate female and one chocolate splash female (both texels), I bred the chocolate splash to my blue buck and intend to then breed the babies (which should be black), who should be carrying chocolate, back to their mother and the other chocolate doe I have. The thing is, there was always a possibility that somebody was carrying something that I didn't know about, so this was going to be a test breeding also.

Well, here's what the splash girl (Pandora) gave birth to yesterday:



There are three boys and three girls. I definitely want to keep the girls- but I also need boys that carry chocolate. So now I don't know if I should be culling anyone- especially since it looks like some of the babies are a lot darker than the others. At this age (1 day old) would I be able to tell if any of them were black/not black? Would it be sinful to keep all six until I'm positive on color? Milk bands look good and mom doesn't seem overtaxed. I've been checking them obsessively and keep picking up bucks with the intention of culling, but then I get curious and put them down because I'm dying to know what color they are.

Happy Any input/advice is very welcome! Thank you guys so much for helping me with these first litters!
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by GypsyTails on Wed May 23, 2012 5:45 pm

For test litters, you need to keep all 6 at this point until you are sure of the colors you will be getting. 6 babies is usually a manageable lot. One baby looks a little thin, but it could be the way he/she is positioned in your hand. They are also newborns, so the next couple of days should give you an idea of how they are going to grow. Give mama lots of healthy treats! I find them still easy to cull once more pigment comes in. Once they get around 10-14 days old is when I get uncomfortable culling because they're in the REALLY cute stage. Of course, if they have any issues, it's a no brainer regardless of how cute they are then. But yes, I would keep them until more pigment comes in and you can see their bone structures better. They're just little jelly beans now. Happy

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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by Laigaie on Wed May 23, 2012 5:53 pm

By the third day (your last chance for freezer method), you should be able to see a good amount of pigment, and at least guess at most colors. If it is a test litter, I would save whichever mice either have the variety you're looking for, or whose variety you're unsure about. You can certainly save all six without harm to mum, or you could cull out males once you've identified their phenotype.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Wed May 23, 2012 5:55 pm

Thank you guys Happy

There is a thin baby but I'll wait and see how they turn out. Since I'm using the flick method, how old can they be before I have to do something else?

Edit: Another question, is it possible that they are still all black and one just happens to be really dark, or are the lighter ones something besides black?
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by Laigaie on Wed May 23, 2012 7:37 pm

Either is possible. Blue also often looks quite dark, as does agouti. Chocolate and some c-diluted colors tend to be paler black-eyed pups. Actually, a guide of pups photographed in daylight, grouped by color (groups of photos of chocolate pups from different lines, then groups of photos of black pups...) could be a really helpful document for folks doing test-breedings.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Wed May 23, 2012 7:46 pm

There's a few pale black eye pups in the litter, so fingers are crossed for chocolates.

Thank you for all of your help. I sincerely appreciate it!

And great idea about the guide. Maybe I'll start taking individual photos of my babies to see if there is a really telling difference in bubs.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by m137b on Wed May 23, 2012 8:25 pm

The blue buck is out of a black tan satin texel doe and a siamese texel buck. So he is a/a B/* C/ch d/d.

The doe is out of a chocolate satin texel doe and a black splashed colorpoint satin angora buck, so a/a b/b ce/ce[or ce/ch, does she have points? I can't remember] D/*

You could get a good range of colors from this breeding. Black would be the goal, but you could also get colorpoint and colorpoint splashed.

I'd give them 3-5 days until the coat starts to show, then post pics and we can give you a good idea what the colors are.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by seafolly on Wed May 23, 2012 8:55 pm

Laigaie wrote: Actually, a guide of pups photographed in daylight, grouped by color (groups of photos of chocolate pups from different lines, then groups of photos of black pups...) could be a really helpful document for folks doing test-breedings.

Yes please!

Also, just tossing this in as someone who just did a test litter, half of me wishes I didn't cull the bucks as it wiped out all my red eyed babies. So my solution is to just breed Tully again in a couple of months and hope one of the daughters has pink eyes to get a better idea of what the parents are carrying. If you're comfortable culling at a later age, I say keep 'em!
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by Rhasputin on Wed May 23, 2012 9:21 pm

I'm up for putting something like that on the UMC's website, if people want to try to record the information!

Like, someone who has a litter of blacks, could show the development of pigment from day 1 through day 10 or something like that.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by seafolly on Wed May 23, 2012 10:03 pm

Well if one of my ladies is black, we've got one version of black covered, haha. I started at Day 2 but...it's something to throw in. aka, pink skin at that age can mean squat. :p
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Fri May 25, 2012 10:00 am

Baby update:



Any input on possible colors? One of the girls is quite small.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by seafolly on Fri May 25, 2012 1:24 pm

This is Day 3? My uneducated eye sees two blacks. My black girl was nowhere near that dark at Day 3, more like the top two. And that's the extent of my experience. ;D They're lovely.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Sat May 26, 2012 12:16 pm

seafolly wrote:This is Day 3? My uneducated eye sees two blacks. My black girl was nowhere near that dark at Day 3, more like the top two. And that's the extent of my experience. ;D They're lovely.

Yeah, that was day three. The black boy is even darker today! I culled the other two bucks and now have the three does and one black buck remaining. It looks like the does are all splash but I could be wrong.

We shall see! Waiting waiting..
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Sun May 27, 2012 10:44 am

Day four!



All texel, says the whiskers!
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:24 pm

Baby update!



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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by Rhasputin on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:28 pm

I want babies!!!! Hissy fit
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by kawmice on Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:30 am

Very cute pups!! They are growing nicely!
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:08 am

Sometimes the light ones, who may as well be white for their appearance, are the most rewarding to keep as pinkies. It all depends on what you're expecting. What I need to save--brindles who are also pied and/or c-diluted--all look pink until Day 6 or 7, and sometimes longer!
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by thewesterngate on Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:53 pm

I LOVE progression pictures. I'm about to post some of my own. Happy I can't get enough of watching them grow day by day.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:06 pm

Mrs. Beach wrote:Sometimes the light ones, who may as well be white for their appearance, are the most rewarding to keep as pinkies. It all depends on what you're expecting. What I need to save--brindles who are also pied and/or c-diluted--all look pink until Day 6 or 7, and sometimes longer!

This is so completely true!
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by kawmice on Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:37 pm

True, but frustrating! Lol.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by doganddisc on Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:48 pm

Baby update again: Looks like the beige doe is starting to display signs of failure to thrive Sad Sad I'm quite upset about this!



Beige girl in the top right corner of the image:



Beige doe again:



Black texel doe:



Black texel buck:



The whole litter again, beige girl up front:

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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by thewesterngate on Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:25 pm

WOW, what coats! Best of luck with the beige girl.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:56 am

Give the beige girl time, and see if you can get some extra nutrition into her. Like, pull the others out to hold and leave the beige girl in with mom.
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Re: Pandora's Babies! And knowing who to cull?

Post by seafolly on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:02 pm

Oh. My. God. Why don't we live closer together? They are stunning! I have my fingers crossed for your girl.
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