Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

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Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:55 am

(I don't know a whole lot about umbrous. Is the mouse on the masthead of this forum umbrous?)

My Victorian Line is mainly descended from WNT mice. Here is Sunbather, daughter of GYPT Queen Victoria and WNT Ivory Boy. (Ivory Boy could have been A/a, I'm thinking.) She looks a little shaded on top. Is she umbrous?




Here are the orange/brown mystery mice from MBBE TMIQ x Elena's Bluetrie (Bluetrie's genes are exclusively WNT). TMIQ is supposedly A^vy/*(and it could be A or a), B/b, C/c-dilute, E/*, Fz/*, Go/go, S/s, Sa/*. I do not know Bluetrie's genotype. Jenny is working on locating the genotypes of his parents. He appears to be a/a c^e/c^e s/s Spl/*. There tends to be b and maybe d in this line, but not really e, from what I have seen. Jenny would know more.















These pix were taken in a light box. I apologize for the really poor focus.

My questions are: Are they A^vy? Stina said they looked like sooty e/e or A^vy. Their bellies are so much lighter than the rest of them. That's characteristic of A^vy. Is that conclusive? If they are sooty A/* e/e, would that account for their orangey/brown roots and dark tips? It's almost like they are diluted agouti somethings. What could that be, if TMIQ carried a c-dilute? I know they wouldn't be diluted agouti brindles because only the stripes would be agouti colored...right?

Another line of questions goes like this: Are they sooty or umbrous? Gee. And how could one tell? I know they have to be agouti to be umbrous. Is this why their roots are orangey/brown and their hair tips are dark?

Here, finally, are the mystery dilutes from MBBE Chrysalis x MBBE Tuxton, none of whom are related to WNT mice, but the same kind of ticked/umbrous thing is going on here, too.

Here they all are, from darkest to lightest:


The lightest one, LSD ("Little Scared Dilute"), who I think has some brindle stripes on his nose. LSD also appears to be fox. Tuxton is fox.



The second lightest one, much the same shade as LSD:


Then there are two darker ones, more of a steel grey than a soft grey with hint of brown, and looking possibly agouti or umbrous or something.





There were seven babies in this litter. I've saved all seven to try to figure things out. (One of the pied ones just died. Conked out on the chips. Who knows why? Looks like a heart attack or something sudden.) There is one c^e/c^e A^vy brindle tricolor, two pied mock chocolate, and these four mystery dilutes. 50% of this litter should have been A^vy, so I'm thinking two of these four should be A^vy, since there are two of a creamy, soft, grey with a hint of brown and two of a steely grey. But which are which? Am I really seeing stripes on LSD's face? LSD is certainly close to Mrs. Beach's dilute color. That would make the other one his color also A^vy/* c^ch/c^e. WHAT DO PEOPLE THINK? I need to identify the A^vy c^ch/c^e because those are the ones I need to breed!
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by seafolly on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:23 am

The orange-y girl you've shown looks exactly like mine. The tips look a little blue in her. I just call her sooty RY although she does look umbrous, I don't see ticking as I'd expect to see on agouti. Her mother is RY and her father is presumably c/ce.
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Laigaie on Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:39 pm

Oh, man. So, in my opinion, "sooty" and "umbrous" are exactly the same thing, caused by exactly the same set of modifiers. I understand some folks feel like U is a dominant gene that is passed on like any other Mendelian bit, but I respectfully disagree.

Second, I think you've got more than "umbrous" going on. Since Avy is a possibility, I'd go with that. I would've suggested that they were A, if you weren't the Empress of Brindles. I think I see the stripes you mentioned on LSD (who's a real cutie, btw), but I never know whether they're cast marks (molt marks) or actual stripes until they've stuck around for a while. Especially with dilutes, you seem to get a lot of cast marks. Unfortunately, dilutes can also give the appearance of A (or Avy) by being slightly streaky and having a slightly darker undercoat. Blue does this sometimes, too, when added to other interesting things. But some of those undercoats look really dark compared to the top color. I think those are your best candidates for Avy.
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:48 pm

Laigaie, you are speaking my language! You are seeing what I am seeing and connecting it to knowledge I do not have! Thank you! There is a possibility of A in Sunbather, TMIQ's litter, and Chrysalis's litter. The mystery dilutes could be A.

LSD has been exhibiting faint brindlish stripes on his nose practically since he's had fur. He is the smallest of the litter and I would have culled him, except I need to find out what's going on here! He is extremely fast and jumpy, scared all the time, poor fella. I don't know if he will have a long life, but he is very cute, as you said.

So when you say that the mystery dilutes with the darker undercoats are the best A^vy candidates, I assume you're talking about LSD's sibs, and not the orangey/brown bubs, right?
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Laigaie on Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:09 pm

You got it!
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:04 pm

(I am amazed!) (The steel grey ones might be A^vy.) THANK YOU, LAIGAIE!

Waitaminnit! This raises more questions! If LSD really does have brindle stripes on his nose, then the creamier grey would be A^vy. (...perhaps LSD does not have brindle stripes on his nose...?) (Perhaps I should wait three months for stripes to come in?) (Ohhhh, but I want my brindle tricolors NOW!) Big smile
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Laigaie on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:24 pm

(waiting for stripes to come in, is that like waiting for tan to darken up?) Waiting is definitely the safest option. :/
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:34 pm

It ain't like waiting for the Robert E. Lee. It's more like waiting for Godot! More than TWO MONTHS to wait! eeeeeeee! The closer I get to brindle tris, the more excited I get. But I want to do it right!

Yeah, I'm a relatively new breeder. I've been breeding about two years, although I've kept mice since 1967. I still get excited and impatient. Thank you for the wise, experienced counsel.
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Laigaie on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:43 pm

Pffft! I'm no wise, experienced counsel! I'm so sorry if I sound like it. I just really like genetics and research. It's why I originally got into breeding mice, though I started keeping them because I couldn't handle rats full of tumors all the time anymore. I've been breeding, oh, year and a half with good stock, maybe six months before that with petstore stock? No longer than you. You've been keeping mice longer than I've been ALIVE. Worship
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by seafolly on Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:12 am

Laigaie wrote:though I started keeping them because I couldn't handle rats full of tumors all the time anymore.

Me too! 15 years of rats and the last one, a tumour in the brain, broke my heart. /off topic
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:54 am

Laigaie wrote:You've been keeping mice longer than I've been ALIVE. Worship

[extended laughter here!]

Yes, Seafolly, I agree. Tumors are the worst! You feel so helpless to save the beautiful little animal you love and who depends on you for everything.
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by seafolly on Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:29 pm

Yes. Sad In many cases, if not malignant, I'd just have them removed. In the last one's case I just wanted to ease his pain (it ruptured at 10 pm and he finally died around 5 am - I was with him the whole time). But mice seem to go so fast. Rats have a slow, slow decline. I've never found one that died in his or her sleep. It's always months of illness and treatments. And all those URI's in between.
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:20 am

The more drawn-out it is, the worse it is.
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Rhasputin on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:21 am

For reference:

http://www.informatics.jax.org/marker/MGI:98883

http://www.informatics.jax.org/javawi2/servlet/WIFetch?page=alleleDetail&key=1521

Chapter 2 section III
http://www.informatics.jax.org/wksilvers/frames/framepreface.shtml

http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/40/229.pdf
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:07 pm

I am getting the concept that I should not breed any of those sooty dilutes. Thank goodness for Shade and Tenebrae, the two c^ch/* dilutes I just got from Amber (still in QT)! In Chrysalis' litter, I think that Yella (the A^vy c^e/c^e tri) x Lester (the surviving pied mock chocolate) should produce 50% A^vy, 50% c^ch/*, 100% s/s, and 50-75% Spl, which is mighty high odds for darker brindle tricolors!
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Mrs. Beach on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:37 pm

Wait a minnit! My breeding goal is A^vy/a! So I could use those dilutes because sootiness doesn't show on mice who aren't A. Right!

Rhasputin, thank you for those Jax links! It explained to me that sootiness=umbrous, and appears only on agouti mice. (I haven't read everything yet. I got too excited!) BTW, when I was new to the online mouse world and mouse genetics I went to the Jax web site, was overwhelmed, and figured it wasn't for me. I can understand it now!!!!!! Thank you to all my mouse genetics mentors and sponsors!!!!
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Re: Umbrous in my c-dilute line?

Post by Laigaie on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:37 am

Sootiness doesn't show on mice who aren't A? That would suggest that an a/a RY mouse could never be sooty, which could not be further from the truth. I think what they meant is that it's not visible on BLACK mice, the gene for which (a) is called "non-agouti".
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