Help me figure out what color this guy is!

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Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by BlueStoneSiamese on Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:13 pm



Ok I need help figuring out what this male (Fauntleroy) could be. He is definitely a^t/* d/d go/go S/s sa/sa, as I bred him twice to a blue tan doe (a/a/ d/d Go/go S/s sa/sa) and produced all blue satin kids (self, pied, and tan, some angora). I just can't figure out the c-dilute(s). He is fox, so there's something turning his belly white. I was told he was a black eyed silver fox, but I found a pic of a BE silver on hiiret.fi
(Hiiret c^ch page- photo at the very bottom on the right) and that mouse is the color of a nickel, not the dark bluish of this male. I inbred several of his kids and he apparently carried PE as well as I have silver grandbabies. Any help on what c-dilute he could be? He has a blue tan grandson too- I had assumed he was c^ch/c^ch but then he wouldn't produce tan kids or grandkids since the c^ch would turn tan to fox (if I'm understanding genetics correctly). Would C/c^ch do anything to a tan belly? I don't know what c dilute (if any) the blue tan mother was, so I'm going off what I've seen from his kids (bred to the blue tan doe) and grandkids to "backtrack" to his genotype. A daughter from a previous litter (before I adopted him) produced a himalayan, and his dad was supposed to be a PEW Texel so c is somewhere in there. Any ideas?
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by Kitei on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:15 pm

To my (new) knowledge, you only need a single copy of c^ch to turn it into a fox, and the whole c-series seems very much co-dominant. To me, he looks like a blue fox. He's the same colour as my blues, but much, much darker than my silver doe (who is on the darker side of silver). So C/c^ch would, to me, make sense.
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by BlueStoneSiamese on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:26 pm

I thought that as well but wouldn't the full color C make the c^ch not show? (I am new to mouse genetics and know rat genetics so that's why I ask- in rats full color C would mask c^anything.)
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by Kitei on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:37 pm

Did a quick bit of reading on that, and from what I can tell, C^ch with C would still lighten the tan, so I think it's still likely.
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by TrixYogurt (iM) on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:29 pm

It couldn't be C/c^ch as the C for full color would stop the affect of c^ch from doing anything.

If he's likely c^ch/c^h or c^ch/c^e. That would be my guess. Any of the C locus genes could change the tan to white. Only c^ch/c^ch would get you a black fox as all the other genes can affect the top color's pigment as well. Are you sure that he has blue in his line?

He could be a black fox who's top color is also diluted by whatever c-dilutes he carries and explain why he appears too dark for blue in my opinion.

In any affect he definitely isn't C/*(something); he has to be c^*/c^*. If that makes sense to you.

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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by Mrs. Beach on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:45 pm

He's a^t/* c^ch/c^ch d/d. I've had c^ch/c^ch blue foxes and c^ch/c^e blue foxes, and he appears to me to be c^ch/c^ch. The c^ch/c^ch dilutes his tan belly to white. He could have tan babies if you crossed him to a C/* doe.
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by BlueStoneSiamese on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:37 am

Is here a way to determine if he's c^ch, c^h or c^e?

I'm fairly sure he's definitely blue- all his kids from all the litters he's had are blue or blue based. I inbred two of his blue kids and got blue and silver. And trixyogurt he's the granddad of the pied kids I posted that you were interested in. I do have a ped but its partial and I'm not sure how accurate it is. (The breeder he came from has eye problems and has difficulties seeing lighter colors on the mice.)
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by Mrs. Beach on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:15 pm

If he had c^h he'll get a dark nose point like a Siamese by about five weeks of age, but from his hue he's c^ch/c^ch.

These mice are both c^ch/c^e d/d.


The upper mouse here is a^t/a c^ch/c^ch d/d.

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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by BlueStoneSiamese on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:40 am

Is there a specific name for a mouse who is: a^t/a c^ch/c^ch d/d ? I believe that is him, he's definitely close to the top mouse you pictured with that genotype.
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by BlueStoneSiamese on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 am

An is there a visual difference between: a/a C/c^ch d/d mouse and: a/a c^ch/c^ch dd mouse? Since I'm figuring out the original male I'm trying to make sure the genotype fits his kids and grand kids.
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by [Dino] on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:03 am

C/c^ch can turn a belly towards pale yellow, but never pure white (or they would have to be specifically bred for it). And the only c-dilutie that leaves the blue color really like a C/* blue is c^ch/c^ch. c^ch/c^e will leave the mice with a brownish tinge, making it look a bit more lilac. And c^h/c^ch will result in a darker blue that has kind of a ticked look to it and points (might not be clearly visible).

The only difference you can tell a C/c^ch d/d mouse from a c^ch/c^ch dd is when they have tan! But if they don't, very early in the litter, best between 1 and 2 weeks, you can see the hairs in the pups ears. When they are tan-colored the mouse is C/* and when they are c^ch/c^ch they will be white Happy

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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by Mrs. Beach on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:30 pm

I've been told that technically only a/a c^ch/c^ch d/d is blue fox. a/a c^ch/c^e d/d would be described as diluted blue fox.
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by BlueStoneSiamese on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:40 pm

Many many thanks to all who responded to this post. I think I've got a hold on what my male is genetically. Big smile
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Re: Help me figure out what color this guy is!

Post by Mrs. Beach on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:13 pm

Tadah!
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