Black vs. Sepia?

I knew I possibly had a c-dilute other than c floating around in my Blues, but I didn't know which one it was. I wanted to bring Blue into my X-Brindles, so I paired a PEW X-Brindle doe with my best Blue buck, Cupid. In the litter, I got Black X-Brindle, PEW X-Brindle and Black. Out of that litter, I took the PEW and Black X-Brindle does and crossed them to my newest best Blue buck, Dusk. In the litters, I got Black X-Brindle, Blue X-Brindle, PEW X-Brindle, Blue, Blue Merle, Black (that looks like all my Blacks out of my Blue line) and then another Black, who actually looks like she may be Sepia. She has a browish hue and her extremities aren't as black as usual. I wanted to see what other people thought.

My digital camera isn't working, so I've been having to use my phone for photos and upload them directly to Facebook. That would be why I haven't been spamming everyone with baby pics and all my extra mice for RF yet! Haha. Please excuse the links for the time being. I can't remember how to copy a pic on FB and have it show as a picture rather than a link. If anyone could remind me how, it would be much appreciated. LOL.

Here we go, Black vs. Sepia? Do I indeed have c^ch?:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=345063868863609&l=09c2bfad73
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=345064248863571&l=cd79f63f58
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=345064652196864&l=26c9a503e3

I see the diff. The mouse on the right looks like a very dark agouti, kind of, to me, but I haven't had much sleep. What's the genotype for sepia? Was that dark c-dilute, or whatever the magic gene is, in that line?

a/a c^ch/c^ch

The only known dilute was c. Though I was getting lighter Blue and blue Splash on occasion which made me suspect another c-dilute as well.

Maybe one is just Black and the other poor Black?

I have a little girl like that as well. I assumed she was a Chocolate since I'd read that Chocolates from Black lines can be extremely dark.

http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/chocolate.html

Does she have any tan hairs?

She has wispy-white/tan hairs you can see along her belly and flanks more compared to the other Blacks. Also, her ears, toes and tail are also more brownish. Sorry, they didn't want to hold still!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=345067342196595&l=480be11ede

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=345065045530158&l=fb3403e668

I honeslty don't know what she is. Either is just as likely as the other. But I love how smooth and muscular she looks, makes me wanna come steal her, lol.

Thanks! Yeah, she's the typier of the two. I just wish I knew what she was! I'm trying to decide what to do with her. Maybe I should do a test litter, but I am having a brain fart and can't think of what I could pair her with to determine what she is.

What about c^ch/c? Isn't that a light Mock Chocolate? No, she's too dark for that.

Wait, I'm a ding dong! Her dam is the PEW X-Brindle, so she couldn't be Sepia UNLESS her dam is really c^ch/c p/p! Is this another line with fake PEWs????? Say it isn't so! Waaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

Ok, where's Stina? She's working on black eyed Silvers, so maybe she'd know. Stina!!!!! HELP MY BRAINS!!!!! Too long of a day for genetics today.

What are fake PEW's????? oh...c^h/c p/p, or something of that nature?

she looks like she could be either to me....lol

let me just say that those mock pew's seriously tick me off....lol

Stina wrote:she looks like she could be either to me....lol

let me just say that those mock pew's seriously tick me off....lol

I know, right? I had to face the fact that I had PE Ivory c^e/c p/p posing as PEW because there was NO other way. I'm having to reevaluate THAT whole situation. Now maybe c^ch/c p/p too? Blah! Makes PEW, Ivory, Beige a little more complicated.

Sure does! (and I'm working with them, too)

WOW!!!! Very confusing! A mock PEW??? what??....... wow.........

lol

She is a nice looking mouse. I definately see the difference but have no clue what sdhe could be. My best guess would be a sepia. Sorry that I can't help much. I am not the best with genetics .......... yet. lol

I think to do a test breed for chinchilla would be to an Agouti correct? I don't really have either of those varieties to work with but a ticked variety would do best to display on ticked rather then self.

That's what I was thinking. BUT the only ticked varieties I have are Cinnamon Tan and an Agouti who carries True Hairless! LOL. My Tans are heterozygous though, so I should have some self Cinnamons again soon.

I think they are sepia, their ears and tails are more grayish like sepia and not brownish like black. They also have a grayish tone to their fur. I don't have any experience with this though

To test if she's sepia and not black, breed her a light c-dilute[ce/c, c/c, ce/ce, ch/c, ch/ch, ch/ce]. You'll get a relatively small controlled group of genotypes as a result, either mock chocolates or burmese, aka all medium to pale brown pups.

I would breed to a pew probably. You'd either get all "muds" or some c-dilutes and some not.

There is another possibility.....do your "regular" blacks normally have any orange hairs (as babies especially)?...did she ever have any orange hairs?..could it be that you have a great deal of a^e in the lines and your blacks have mostly been extreme non-agoutis and she just isn't extreme?...

Dino, sepia actually has a brownish cast...but no orange hairs anywhere. Blacks (decent ones anyway) will not have as much of a brownish cast, but will have orange hairs in their ears/around their genitals.

Ah, like that I have some black tans that I wasn't sure about being black or sepia, because their tan was so light, but they actually have orange hairs on the inside of the ears

Stina wrote:I would breed to a pew probably. You'd either get all "muds" or some c-dilutes and some not.

There is another possibility.....do your "regular" blacks normally have any orange hairs (as babies especially)?...did she ever have any orange hairs?..could it be that you have a great deal of a^e in the lines and your blacks have mostly been extreme non-agoutis and she just isn't extreme?...

Dino, sepia actually has a brownish cast...but no orange hairs anywhere. Blacks (decent ones anyway) will not have as much of a brownish cast, but will have orange hairs in their ears/around their genitals.

My "regular" Blacks can have some orange hairs, but they are more likely to have white hairs. Sime of the original mice I got from MIKI 2 years ago, he said were extreme but we didn't know back then if they really were or if they were just good Blacks. She really does have a brownish hue. After RF, I will test breed her to a PEW I know isn't a mock PEW, since I discovered the hard way that yes, I do have them!